"We are so fucking cool!". Also: irony?

[JimmyC]

I just watched the movie again the second time (I've watched it again several times since the first time, but this is the second time I watched it all the way through without skipping around a lot). So I wanna talk about the movie again, obviously, but there's really no point to this thread other than me rambling about it some more, trying to put into words some more reasons exactly why the movie feels so RIGHT to me.

I want to talk about the car scene. I think it's the PERFECT thing Elin could have said in that moment: "We are so fucking cool!"

Because the line itself doesn't really directly advance anything in the story or anything, but it serves another purpose, it shows us something about the speaker. It so perfectly captures the personality and the innocence of Elin. You really FEEL how young she is when she says this because she hasn't reached that point where feeling excited about something is automatically uncool. That she says "we are so fucking cool" is so uncool that it's absolutely wonderful! I remember that feeling! I love how she says the line too, she is so excited and genuine and totally in the moment.

The other thing I wondered about is the Foreigner song. I've come across some threads in the forum where people say that they were turned off by this song at first, but then realized the irony of it so they then liked it.

I totally disagree. I don't think the song is in irony at all. I think the song is perfect, in the sense that "We are so fucking cool" is perfect. Because that's the kind of corny ass song that you really did *FEEL* so strongly about when you were in high school! Or at least me... I did. Now I listen to stuff that's "much cooler" but do I feel as deeply about them? I don't know, probably, but deeply in a different way. I think Moodysson included this song not in irony but to perfectly reflect the kind of heightened emotions you can attach to the most un-cool stuff when you are at this age. And that's what's so fucking cool about it, I found it to be absolutely touching and genuine, without a touch of irony.

I could be wrong in this, but this is my interpretation and it makes me happy. What do y'all think?

Oh yeah... I also watched Lilja 4-Ever last night. Very good but very depressing.

~j

PS - I sometimes feel like I'm talking to myself on here. Will somebody reply, please?

[kant1781]

I sometimes feel like I'm talking to myself on here. Will somebody reply, please?

Easy, companero, easy! As far as I can see, none of your posts to this forum so far has gone unanswered!

I think I completely agree with you on "Vi är so jävla coola", your explanation is spot on the mark. And it's right that the Foreigner song works in exactly the same way. Still it's ironic to me. It's exactly like you say:

I think Moodysson included this song (...) to perfectly reflect the kind of heightened emotions you can attach to the most un-cool stuff when you are at this age.

(or, whenever you are in love, at any age, I might add).
But you say it yourself: Moodysson points to this fact in a "reflected" way. That is, he looks at the thing from exactly your perspective, from the outside perspective of someone who has grown to build a taste and knows that Foreigner music is really inexcusable. But he does it nevertheless and says, hey, but that's how it was and sometimes still is, and isn't it wonderful that you can be like that? That is, the whole thing is sincere and truthful, but at the same time reflected and therefore amusing and refreshing. And that precisely is the irony: that the scene has this double perspective, from inside and from outside. "Ironic" doesn't necessarily mean "condescending". There's a loving kind of irony, irony without treason, one that is honest and loving and still reflected. It's a bit like in relationships: When you are freshly and madly in love, it would appear as a sinful, unimaginable crime to make a joke on the person you love. But with a really good friend or with someone you have been together with for a long time, you can joke around on each other's cost, you can point to each other's faults and shortcomings and laugh about it, because you know beyond question that you love each other regardless.
Just imagine the same scene in a not too sophisticated teenager drama from the eighties, where the Foreigner song is not at all doubly coded but 100% seriously presented as great music expressing the feelings of the characters, without any wink of an eye. Wouldn't that be unbearable?

[kant1781]

Just an addition to my above post, as I was reading the recent posts on "Lost and Delirious": To illustrate the contrast I wanted to make, just think of "Lost and Delirious". This film is 100% irony-free. And that is why it is so much less rewarding and intelligent than Fucking Åmål. The girls in L&D kneel down before each other, loudly declaring Shakespeare sonnetts and monologues in public to express themselves and REALLY MEAN IT, boy, they do really mean it. Shakespeare in L&D has the same function as Foreigner in FÅ. The difference is that the Shakespeare scenes in L&D are completely dead serious. That's bad and clichéd romanticism. It's corny. It's corny because there's no hint to the ugly truth that everyone later comes to find one's own heartfelt declarations of Shakespeare, singing of songs or writing of poetry (think of Agnes) just terribly awkward, clichéd or just downright comic - WITHOUT DENYING that while one was in that state, it was real. That's why for me, the Shakespeare scenes in L&D just don't work. All I can think is, "Yeah alright, girl, grow up. In a few years you'll blush at the thought of this scene". In FÅ however, the heart-gripping romanticism that I love as much as anyone, is reflected. That's why it's romantic and NOT corny. Instead, it's romantic and ironic. It's romantic and fucking cool.

[JimmyC]

Easy, companero, easy! As far as I can see, none of your posts to this forum so far has gone unanswered!

Haha. Sorry! I was being whiny!

I agree with your explanation of why it's ironic. I think maybe I had a different concept of what "irony" meant, I certainly thought the movie wasn't condescending to its characters, but I can see how irony doesn't have to mean that now.

Which reminds me, I seem to end up falling in love with movies who have this sense of "irony". I don't really call it irony, exactly, but a certain type of real feeling/hope in the face of some kind of knowledge of the world/cynicism. I don't know how to say that very well, but I realize this common theme in some of my very favorite movies (8 1/2 for instance, and to a lesser degree Nights of Cabiria (Fellini is my favorite director)). I think there is something so beautiful when a movie can achieve that, when a movie can say "look, I know there's all this cynicism out there but we don't have to fall into this meaningless postmodernness because of it, we can still feel deeply and live fully despite losing our innocence" etc. Do you know any other movies that do this?

I haven't seen Lost & Delirious, but you make a good point. I've seen many movies like you described, and didn't love them.

~j.

[kant1781]

I realize this common theme in some of my very favorite movies (8 1/2 for instance, and to a lesser degree Nights of Cabiria (Fellini is my favorite director)). I think there is something so beautiful when a movie can achieve that, when a movie can say "look, I know there's all this cynicism out there but we don't have to fall into this meaningless postmodernness because of it, we can still feel deeply and live fully despite losing our innocence" etc. Do you know any other movies that do this?

8 1/2 is a pretty cool comparison that I never thought of!

Definitely on the list:
Steven Soderbergh's debut, "Sex, Lies, and Videotapes" (1989),
Vincent Gallo's "Buffalo 66" (1998),
Richard Linklater's double "Before Sunrise" (1995) and "Before Sunset" (2004),
and a German feature by Wolfgang Becker, "Das Leben ist eine Baustelle" (Life Is a Construction Site") (1997).

And, tentatively, speaking of classics:
Edward's "Breakfast at Tiffany's" (1961)!

[JimmyC]

Thanks for all those suggestions! I'll definately keep an eye out for them. I saw Tillsammans recently (loved it), and that can be grouped in this category as well. Also, I think Rushmore has that same effect on me, and it is definately one of my favorites.

[D-Sypher]

Wow, Don't get me wrong, but I'm Amazed that these forums are somewhat dedicated to this movie. I just watched the movie about a
month ago at my sisters place, and was AMAZEd, like really, i was really touched by it, then i waited 2 hours for it to Re-Run, lol.

But yeah, I'v spent the last 2 days searching the net for it with no sleep, and no luck and i'm Still awake, lol.

But I'm wandering if anyone could send me the movie, via over the net. I'm moving to Alberta in a Week and a half, and yes, I'm Canadian and I won't be in touch with a computer for about 2 months, which is sad and was hoping that maybe i can get the movie and burn it to a CD

This movie has somewhat changed me, mentally, and i wanna watch it again, cause knowing me, ill watch it 4,5 times in a row

I know this is a bad place to post this and i don't wanna make a topic on it so i pray someone can send me it, i have msn and hotmail and i have 2 weeks at the most.

I Feel like a Dumass posting it here, but its the most updated one iv seen, heres my email D-Sypher@hotmail.com and my msn is DarkSpawn94@hotmail.com

Please and Thank you

[JimmyC]

Do you have $15 to spare?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004 ... ance&n=130

check the "New and Used" section for a cheaper buy.

Good luck! And yes, I feel for you... I had a similar experience with this movie about 2 weeks ago.

~j

[D-Sypher]

Dam, please, i really want to get this movie before i leave

[D-Sypher]

actaully nvm, im just gonna Bit torrent it

[oeb]

Hrm... again with the, needless to say - illegal - downloading. Let me remind you that several DVDs are available from the webshop on this site .

[kant1781]

Spain_1 asked for a clarification on the irony idea in a different thread, so I'll try to do it one more time here.

(And by the way, Spain and Ikeano, thank you very very much indeed for your kind words on my site. Your appreciation is precious to me.)

Now, about the irony. I'll try to explain. It's difficult, but in fact I think that you already mentioned what I mean. Today, a widely accepted way of thinking is that being a romantic is childish. Romanticism is something good for children (Disney) or desperate housewives (telenovelas). If you're a grown-up, critical, educated kind of person, you look down on these things. If you talk about love at all, it's in the disillusioned, cynical tone of (to stay in film-making) Lars von Trier. Romanticism is uncool.
Now, along comes Lukas Moodysson and delivers a romantic film whose love plot moves some of the toughest professional film critics to tears and cheers. If you read their comments, you can almost see them struggle with this unimaginable thing. These are people who'd rather die than admit that they have been touched by something, but they can't deny it. And they (like all of us) ask themselves, how on Earth did the man do it? How did he break our armour? How come that we let go and fall in love, even though we're critical, and grown-up, and proud of it?
This is the question. And part of the answer is, I think, irony. Irony is what allows Lukas Moodysson to be romantic and realistic at the same time. I think this is his part of his secret. Fucking Åmål is wildly romatic including its happy end, but at the same time the film stays true to this absolutely unglossed realism. Irony is what you get if you melt romanticism with realism. And this melting is, I believe, the reason why some people react so madly to Fucking Amal: Here is a romance that you can believe in, because it feels so real. We believe in the reality of Agnes and Elin in a way that we would never believe in the reality of any other screen couple. That's what almost everybody says. And this is I think exactly why even the toughest professional cynics can't resist the film's sweetness.
Example #1: Millions of teen movies involve the romantic idea of running away together. It is considered romantic, but it's a stereotype. Worse, it's unreal - it's a fake. That's why we usually look down on it. Things like that never happen in reality. Princes on white horses do not arrive and take poor girls into their castles to become their princess. If they do, you're on reality TV, and they get paid. Now what does Moodysson do? It's brilliant: He toys with the idea, he lets the girls experience the infinte greatness of the feeling of escaping together - and then, romance melts with reality: A completely unromantic driver kicks Romeo and Julia out of the car. That's ironic, because it's what realistically is going to happen in such cases, but still it has been overwhelmingly romantic.
Example #2: Typical teenagers romances end with the two protagonists alone, vowing eternal love to each other in phrases that sound like taken from a poetry anthology (no real teenager talks that way), the sun sets on the horizon, they kiss, and the orchestra sets in. Stereotypes again. What does Moodysson do? He plays with it, and all the romanticism is there, but at the same time it's so real: There they are, in Elin's room, and their faces just shine with bliss. But what do they do? Talk about chocolate milk! That's ironic, even funny. No kiss, no orchestra, no sunset. But is there anything missing? Could we even imagine feeling better or happier after the last scene? I can't. It works, because there's just so much reality built into the romanticism that it gets possible to believe in it.
Example #3: The suicide attempt. That's another thing that Moodysson plays with, in an ironic way. And Spain_1 pointed it out himself. He said:

I cannot take seriously that attempt, most of all by the fact that Agnes is intelligent enough to realize that a razorblade is not an effective way of killing herself......that does not dismiss the misery of Agnes feelings, you know it really hurts, but I think that she’s more playing with the romantic idea of suicide than committing a real one.

Well, exactly! But it's Moodysson who is playing with the romantic idea, taking it seriuosly just enough to make the pain real, but then again, not too real to slip into cheap melodrama - instead, there's this wink of an eye.
Do I make myself understood? I feel that it's difficult to explain my point. But as I said, above, I think a huge part of the wonder of FA lies in the fact that it manages to be romantic and NOT corny. Instead, it's romantic and realistic, and so ironic. You can cry and cheer and still it's jävla coola.

[Spain_1]

Don't worry Kant, you explain yourself pretty well.
I think I'm mixing Irony with cinism.

I say farewell for the weekend, I will not have internet...going to the mountain. It's a pleasure to discuss with you all.