Subtitle difference

[Agnes&Elin Forever!]

hcd, it seems like you're bothered by a lot of things in this film

[hcd]

Not bothered. That word is too harsh. I would rather say that I'm a bit confused by a few things that happen in the film.

F.e. I don't get it how the mother is able to read the diary on the computer. Was the computer running and the file unlocked and open? How unrealistic. A diary is sensible stuff. Nobody would let stay such a thing accessible in any way.

[PerfectNemesis]

^Well, Agnes might have forgotten to exit her diary folder/file

Anyway, its very hard to translate one language to another because of idioms, usage and colloquial phrases that arent translatable to name a few. That is why usually in most cases the translation ends up sounding weird.

[hcd]

Well, Agnes might have forgotten to exit her diary folder/file

Hard to believe. But whatever. In the long run it's a great film. I should really stop poking around for insignificant stuff.

Anyway, its very hard to translate one language to another because of idioms, usage and colloquial phrases that arent translatable to name a few.

That's true.

[kant1781]

I wouldn't go that far and call these distortions or faulty translations.

Well, I do. I granted you before that I was wrong in saying that there is a lot of mistakes. That was how I remembered it, but I was wrong. I should have re-checked before. The German translation in general is perfectly okay.

However, the mistakes I listed are still mistakes. I'm not going to bore you by going through all of them again, I just want to make my point clear one more time, for it is a quite general point:

First example: Rendering "jävla lebb" as "kleine Schlampe" (little slut) instead of "verdammte Lesbe" (fucking dyke) in this particular scene is a serious distortion to me. You don't agree. Fine. We could argue about this point for its own sake. But in fact it doesn't matter very much who is right. It's a matter of principle. The general principle is that, in translating, you need a special reason if you want to deviate from the original. You don't need a special reason to demand that the translation stay as close as possible to the original, as I do, because that's just the standard rule of translating. I can use your own argument for my point: You say that "Lesbe" is not a swearword. Of course not. (At least, it shouldn't be, not for civilized people.) But I suppose that exactly the same goes for "lebb", right? So the word that Elin uses is not in general a swearword. Then why replace it by one? ("Schlampe") Why not use the German word "Lesbe" which is (a) not a swearword, like the original, (b) is a 100% semantic equivalent and (c) preserves lip synchronicity perfectly?

The same goes - second example - for the exchange of "Du" for "Gut" in the coming out scene. Maybe you're right that the one fits the scene as well as the other. So what? Is that a reason for making up a new word that is not there in the original when you could simply translate what is there without any problem? When in fact the Swedish and the German words are, in this case, identical ? (This is what I was calling ridiculous.)

Last example, but same point again: Fact is that when Elin chastices Markus, she says a painfully simple and matter-of-fact thing: "You are so bloody stupid." She does not try to be witty, she does not try to be funny, or to say something original. Fact is too that it would have posed no problem whatsoever to translate this sentence exactly as simple and matter-of-fact as it is, word for word. Then why did the translators feel they had to be cleverer than Lukas Moodysson himself and come up with this wannabe-funny, horrible "ant-on-its-knees" joke? That surely is a distortion, and I do find it annoying. It doesn't matter at all how important the scene is or how important the line in question is. A good translation doesn't mess around with the text with no need and it doesn't make up jokes where there are none in the original, full stop. Easy as that.

Sorry for this long rant. I grant again that all this is not too important. I just wanted to explain why I stick to the word "distortions". I had the impression that I hadn't made myself understood.

[Ian]

Just going to ask - am I the only one who doesn't REMEMBER the film in subtitles? What I mean is, when I remember it, particularly that last scene where Elin admits to Agnes how she feels about her, I don't remember READING it. I just remember her SAYING it.

Am I alone in this?

[PerfectNemesis]

^Really. Well, you probably watched the film several times to even remember what exactly they are saying. I usually turn down the volume a bit when watching foreign films since i don't understand what they are sayin anyway.

[hcd]

I'm not going to bore you by going through all of them again

You don't bore me. It's nice to see that here are still some active people.

The general principle is that, in translating, you need a special reason if you want to deviate from the original.

Where did you get this from? Is this your personal point of view? Just think of the Spencer/Hill movies with a direct translation. Or "The Persuaders!" (Die Zwei). Unimaginable.

Why not use the German word "Lesbe" which is (a) not a swearword, like the original, (b) is a 100% semantic equivalent and (c) preserves lip synchronicity perfectly?

Because the "sound" (sing-sang) sucks? "Lesbe" is too soft. "Du kleine Schlampe" has more "bang" than "Verdammte Lesbe".

However, it's a personal taste if you like "uncorrect" translations or not. I remember the manga "Gunsmith Cats". There're two editions available: The first with more or less free translation (not 100% close to the original) and a "revised" edition with a very close translation. In my opinion the first one rocks, because it's more verbose and it uses a lot of "street" language. The revised edition is the direct opposite. Lame language and straigth to the point. I really don't like it. So I've posted my opinion in a forum. And there were a lot of people who liked the revised edtion more, because of its direct translation.

It's the same here, I guess. You "don't" like the permissive German translation but I do. (And I really like the German voice of Elin. It's so much better than the original. Well, again, in my opinion.) Just different affectations.

[Agnes&Elin Forever!]

Germans really love their synchronisierte Filme

[hcd]

Germans really love their synchronisierte Filme

Well, I do. You can really improve films with a great dubbing. On other hand it's also possible to destroy a basicly good movie with a bad dubbing. F.e. the German syncronisation of "Johnny English" sucks. The English original voices are much better. Or the movie "Das Boot". The US-dubbing is a desaster. No wonder that this film never won an oscar. Because of the x-rated original language they translated it to unrated English. That destroyed the most of the atmosphere of the film. (F.e. says one captain in the original German version the English sentence "I'm too drunk to fuck." The US-version goes like "I'm unable to go to town." or something imbecile like this.)

@kant1781:

Rendering "jävla lebb" as "kleine Schlampe" (little slut) instead of "verdammte Lesbe" (fucking dyke) in this particular scene is a serious distortion to me.

On second thought, "Lesbe" still sounds too soft, but in connection to Agnes' "No one has hurt me so much before", the "fucking dyke" would have been a better choice. (Didn't see that connection before.)

Btw, your nickname looks like a "link" to Immanuel Kant's "Kritik der reinen Vernunft" (Critique of Pure Reason) from 1871. Why is that? (It's not meant as a critique of your chosen name, I'm just curious.)

[Agnes&Elin Forever!]

Well, I do. You can really improve films with a great dubbing.

Yes, this is something I can never understand, I want to have the actors original voice whatever language is spoken.

You always lose a lot of genuine atmosphere when the audio is post-synchronized, you get a very strange studio-feeling instead.

And foreign films are never dubbed where I live, always subtitled, only children's films and TV-series are dubbed into Swedish.

But you grew up with this, so you are used to it and find it better I guess, and most Germans seem to prefer it.

[hcd]

Yes, this is something I can never understand, I want to have the actors original voice whatever language is spoken.

The french version of "The Persuaders!" based on the German translation, because of the bad English original. See also: Wikipedia - The Persuaders - Radical dubbing key to European popularity.

You always lose a lot of genuine atmosphere when the audio is post-synchronized, you get a very strange studio-feeling instead.

No, not if it's well done.

But you grew up with this, so you are used to it and find it better I guess, and most Germans seem to prefer it.

Personally I find German dubbings better, because they're often better than the original (better voices, better dialogs, sometimes better story). F.e. Pierre Richard's "Der große Blonde mit dem schwarzen Schuh" (Follow That Guy with the One Black Shoe (UK), The Tall Blond Man with One Black Shoe (USA)) was a flop in France. The Germans arranged some scenes from the beginning new, changed the dubbing to a complete new story and the movie became a major hit in Germany. After that the "new" movie became also a bigshot in France.

But again, it depends on the dubbing if a movie is better than the original or not. And Germany has a professional dubbing industry with lot's of talented speakers. I guess that's one of the reasons why dubbings are so popular in Germany.

[Agnes&Elin Forever!]

Yes you prefer German-dubbed films, and find them better, I know

I prefer the original sound, doesn't matter which language, and find this is a more genuine experience.

It's just a matter of taste.

[Ian]

I'm with you on this, I'm afraid. I wouldn't want to watch an English-dubbed version of SML under ANY circumstances. Dubbing is a real insult to the actors, IMHO.

It was bad enough on Bear's Kiss, but to lose hearing Alexandra and Rebecka's voices in SML? No thank you very much, I should rather burn in hell for all eternity.

[kant1781]

Let me first state that I am not in general against synchronizing/dubbing, if it's well done. And in Germany (I agree with hcd on this) it is more often than not very well done. The people who do it are professionals, excellent actors, excellent directors. A lot of effort is put into the process. There is no comparison between this and the kind of crude voice-overs you get to hear, from time to time, in Russian or Spanish versions of films. I do prefer subtitled films most of the time, but it's just dogmatic to deny that subtitling has got its problems too. For one, it keeps your attention from where it belongs: with the picture. The pacing of films is aimed at viewers with an undivided attention, not ones who have to read the dialogue at the same time. Dubbing allows you to concentrate on the pictures 100%.

Still, concerning the translation of films (no matter if the translation results in subtitles or in dubbing) I am opposed to most of your points, hcd. I said that the general principle in translating is that you need a special reason if you want to deviate from the original. To which you remarked:

Where did you get this from? Is this your personal point of view?

To which I answer: No, it is just the meaning of the word "translating". Most people would agree that to translate means: Replace a sentence from one language with a sentence from a different language that has (as closely as possible) the same content. It does not mean: Replace a sentence from one language with a sentence from a different language that has a completely different content which the translator for some reason or other liked better.

Or the movie "Das Boot". The US-dubbing is a desaster. No wonder that this film never won an oscar. Because of the x-rated original language they translated it to unrated English. That destroyed the most of the atmosphere of the film. (F.e. says one captain in the original German version the English sentence "I'm too drunk to fuck." The US-version goes like "I'm unable to go to town." or something imbecile like this.)

I just want to note in passing that this is exactly what I have been arguing about the German translation of Fucking Åmål...

But again, my point is more general, and it is not just a matter of taste. I do not deny that there may be examples where a very liberal translation policy which in fact results in an entirely rewritten script improves on the original. You cite a legendary example, "The Persuaders" / "Die Zwei". Now I could reply by citing some of the examples that come to my mind of German translations trying to be funnier than the original which completely killed films, the most prominent one possibly being Monty Python's "Holy Grail" (not to mention the pathetic attempt to dub the "Flying Circus").

(I have no idea about how the Spencer/Hill and PIerre Richard films sounded in their original language by the way, and how much liberties were taken with the German versions. But if you want to imply that the result is in any way successful (let alone funny), then I disagree. It would explain your support for the "Horizont einer knieenden Ameise"-joke however, because that is exactly the same kind of humour. )

Instead I want to underline again that I don't want translators to mess around with works of art, even if once in a lifetime their messing around actually resulted in an improvement. I'll rather have the chance to judge the merit of the original, even if it's bad. It's a matter of principle, as I said. Where do you want to draw the line otherwise? Once you encourage Rainer-Brandt-style rewriting of original scripts, how could you keep some nobody-knows-his-name synchronizing director from saying something like, "Hey, we've got this Roberto Benigni thing called "Life Is Beautiful" here, but it isn't nearly funny enough, we need some more really cool jokes and one-liners in it, where are the guys who did all the Spencer/Hill movies in the seventies, weren't they Italians too? Let them spice this up a bit!" - "Hey, all this Bergman crap is terribly boring and characters don't speak at all for hours... let's "re-arrange the scenes from the beginning" and let the narrator tell some really funny Pierre Richard jokes..." - The very idea is sheer horror to me. Who are these people to judge whether a script needs improvement, and where, and how? When people translate novels by an accomplished writer and think that the end is weak (which it may be), are they expected (or even allowed) to write a new one for the German book market? And why should a film script deserve any less respect?

(And I really like the German voice of Elin. It's so much better than the original. Well, again, in my opinion.)

Contrary to the foregoing, this is a matter of personal taste. I am fully and fiercely opposing your opinion, but there's no arguing about it!

Btw, your nickname looks like a "link" to Immanuel Kant's "Kritik der reinen Vernunft" (Critique of Pure Reason) from 1871. Why is that?

From 1781 precisely (just a typo I guess). I just happen to like that book. And I hold a PhD in philosophy, om du nu måste veta det.